What it really means to know your ideal customer: Building persona with JTBD, Mom Test and NotebookLM
- Émilie Carignan
- May 5
- 4 min read
Updated: May 7
When I first heard about personas as a wet behind-the-ears marketer, it really made sense to me.
"We're gonna sell to Alex, who's 35, lives in an urban environment, and has a $90k annual salary. He likes this, he dislikes that."
You put up a fake avatar photo and blast it on every wall of the company so that everyone knows who we work for and what they want.
But, anyone could be Alex and no one was Alex.
The ad campaign had all the right buttons for this type of persona. Everything was tailored for that. But the reality? The results didn’t match how well the machine was built. So something wasn’t clicking.
I stopped using personas. I thought it didn’t bring much value. But after 10+ years in marketing, something changed. I found something that brought value. And that was… personas. But built differently.
That’s what we’ll talk about today.
I want us to dig into what it really means to know your ideal customer. What kind of deep and practical impact it has on your business. And mainly, how the heck you can achieve that.
Let's dive in.
TL;DR on Jobs To Be Done
Jobs To Be Done (JTBD) is a framework for conducting client interviews that delves deep into their reality. It's not about asking if they want a new feature. It's about understanding how they think, what they're struggling with, what they've already tried, and how they make decisions.
This isn't a one-time exercise. It's something you want to do repeatedly, turning it into a system, a real insights engine inside your company. Without it, you're playing guessing games until something breaks.
How I do customer interviews (with a twist)
JTBD is a way to talk to your customers and uncover what's really going on. We're not talking future ideas or hypotheticals. We're digging into what they've actually done with their purchase:
How they solved the problem
What got in their way
What they truly use or avoid
I actually cheat a bit. I use the Jobs To Be Done framework, but I mix in something called The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick. That way, people don't just tell me what I want to hear. They show me what actually happened.
At the end of the interview, I want two things:
A full timeline from the first time they thought about solving the problem to when they bought.
First Thought (Passive looking)
Event 1 (Active looking)
Event 2 (Deciding)
Buying
A cinematic view of what happened. Where they were. How they felt. What they said. What they did. What they searched. Who they talked to.
From that, I pull out the 4 forces that shaped their decision:
Push: what was frustrating enough to make them seek change
Pull: what was exciting or desirable about the new solution
Anxiety: what made them hesitate to buy
Inertia: what made them stay stuck with the problem
You can have two people with the same demography (same age, same job, same problem), but one moves and the other doesn’t.
The difference is the forces around the decision. It’s what was pushing them, pulling them, scaring them, or holding them back.
This is what I want to understand. This is what helps create better positioning, shape better offers, and build better products.
*You don’t need 6 months of research. At around interview 7 or 8, you’ll see patterns. The push and pull stories repeat. The timeline becomes predictable. The objections are the same.
Talk to your best customers only. The ones who renew. Who refer others. Who loves your product. Those are the ones you want to build your persona around. Not the noisy ones who churned or never got it. You can study them separately but don’t mix the data.
How to build a Systemic Insights engine
Once you know your best customers deeply, you stop guessing. You stop theorizing. You start meeting them where they are.
You’re no longer just trying to convince them. You’re not trying to look like the smartest solution. You’re acting like a co-buyer. An advisor. Someone in their camp who really gets it.
That’s the goal. That’s how the best teams work.
What does this translate to in your business?
Higher lead acquisition: You know where they are looking and what makes them tick.
Higher conversion rate: you speak their language and offer a truly appealing product.
Lower churn: Highly qualified leads convert to happy customers who stay
Now what if you could go even further?
Because things change. Fast. Your market changes. Your users change. You change.
So we can’t rely on interviews from two years ago. Here’s how to keep things relevant.
Option 1: Annual Interview Sprints
Set a time every year to talk to 10 amazing clients. Do it every year. Keep notes. Track changes. Notice what’s evolving.
Option 2: Systematic Insight Collection
Train your sales and customer success teams to collect insights on every call. Record your calls using AI tools like Gemini or any call recorder. Export the transcript and notes.
Then use something like Notebook LM to build a searchable database. Every new convo gets added. Over time, it becomes a goldmine. You can ask it questions like:
What’s the top push reason in the last 6 months?
Are customers mentioning a new competitor?
Has anything changed in the way they search for solutions?
Not only can you get incredibly insightful information, but you can also consume the knowledge through a timeline, mind map and even a podcast. It’s an amazing tool for every client-facing employee and for internal training.
No guessing. No interpretation. Just data in your ICP's own words.
Two simple tips to get started
Schedule 5 interviews with your happiest customers. Just five. Ask them to tell you the story of how they found you. Focus on what happened, not what they think.
Start building your insight database now. Even if it’s just a Google Doc. Start collecting transcripts or quotes from calls. Tag the Push, Pull, Inertia, and Anxiety in bold. It’ll pay off later.
You don’t need a fancy setup. You just need to start.
Let me know if you want templates, visuals or examples. Happy to share. Em.
Comments